HI @russell Can you tell me a bit more about the style, size and construction of your house, and what ideally you’re try to acheive? I should be able to point you to some more information to help you make an informed decision - or at least cut through the confusion. It is all very complicated but there are some basic principles to follow once you’re clear on your objectives
Thanks for this Locky and welcome to Better Century. Your support here is much appreciated!
Hi @Locky . Many thanks for your offer of advice.
The construction is a bit unusual here. It’s a large houseboat made out of a converted Admiralty ammunition barge.
This is her at low tide. When the tide is in she floats!
So in terms of the space heating requirements, the top bit is like a timber frame house. The bottom bit is like a boat. The feeling that I get is that, although it is insulated, it is thermally leaky. Building regs do not apply to house boats so the people who built it just did what they felt was good enough. It’s not terrible to heat but not brilliant either.
Because it is a boat and there is no vehicle access we use electricity for all our water heating, space heating, cooking etc. We are on the grid. As I said above there is no “central” heating system. Currently it is heated by a mixture of convection heaters and old-school storage heaters. This year we have also experimented by replacing the older heaters by newer electric radiators that have accurate thermostatic controls and are programmable (by Rointe) and these have reduced out electricity consumption somewhat.
What I’m trying to achieve is to use less electricity for heating. One obvious place I thought to look was replacing resistive electrical heating by air-to-air heat pumps. The reason for air-to-air is because we don’t have any “ground” for a ground source pump and also we don’t have wet radiators. Installing a wet central heating system would be a massive undertaking and something that I’m not keen to do, given the fact that water leaks on a boat are a fairly serious issue because the boat is water-tight!
However, my current thinking is that air-to-air heat pumps might not be a good option for us for space heating, due to the face that the units would have to produce quite a lot of heat in the winter to keep the place warm and that might put them in to a situation where they are actually less efficient than resistive heating. Really not sure if this is the right conclusion though as it’s more based on gut feeling than any hard evidence.
What a fabulous home.
I’m no technical expert but I have a broad understanding of the principles involved, so as layman to layman, I think the experts would advise tackling the leakiness of heat first - have you had a thermal imaging study undertaken? That should highlight the areas of greatest heatloss, so you can focus on reducing loss through draft proofing and insulation measures. There are lots of natural materials available now to consider.
As far as air source heat pumps are concerned, I suspect that they could cope with heating this space if the system is designed correctly, and would provide the added benefit of summer cooling if overheating is a concern. They should certainly not cost more to operate than conventional resistive systems (as that’s their key selling point)
As far as water heating is concerned have you considered solar thermal? Or even better, PVT (solar PV, cooled by fluids to provide hot water as a by-product)
Where are you based? I might be able to hook you up with someone to provide more technical guidance.
Thanks for the info about PVT @Locky. I’d not heard about that. Will certainly check it out. I’m near Ipswich, if you know anyone near by who could advise, would certainly appreciate that. Thanks again for all your help.
I know someone who can certainly help with the thermal solar side of things, maybe the ASHP too, and he’s based in Ipswich would you believe!
I’ve spoken to him and he’s happy to take a look. How do I message you privately with his details?
I went through the same thought process as our house was poorly insulated and only had electricity connected. One cold April after moving in was all it took to relaise storage heaters had to go. Lots of research and we went for air-to-air heating but an industrial rather than residential unit. Cost less, more powerful and just a little bit bigger. 6 years later it still works well in conjunction with a 5kw woodburner and lots of other insulation measures. We have a 4Kw PV solar array so at the time FIT payments were good so we still earn more than we pay out in electricity and have a cosy or cool house house all year round. You can find out more here http://www.superhomes.org.uk/superhomes/essex-colchester-alresford-station-road/
Welcome to the community and thanks for a great first post!
Just so others are aware there is another thread relevant to this discussion from Graham Baker:
You can get underfloor heating as a pretty thin Matt a few mm thick now. The guy at Sunamp was telling me. Worth giving them a call to go through the requirements. You probably need around 22-28kwh or thermal storage to heat a whole house assuming 3 bedroom. This is a rough guestimate.
Hi @Richard_Phillips, thanks for the info. Not sure how this fits in with an air-to-air heat pump though? Are you proposing to heat a sunamp-style thermal battery with a hear pump? If so this is not air-to-air. The reason that I was interested in air-to-air was the difficulty of retro-fitting a wet system (either conventional radiators or underfloor heating) where there is none already.
Having a wet central heating system really does give additional options for heating though as there is a much larger thermal mass to heat up and therefore your heating requirements can be more constant. It opens up viable options for heat pumps, solar thermal, thermal batteries etc.
Without a wet system, your options are basically just electric radiators or air-to-air heat pumps. I could be missing something here though
Thanks @Richard_Phillips. I think you are absolutely right and that the conventional wisdom seems to be that you should insulate before investing in any fancy heating technology. It is generally cheaper and as you said, any heat pump will be fighting a loosing battle unless the property is properly insulated.
I’ve actually parked the heat pump idea for now and am working on insulation instead. We have already had the double glazing (wooden frames) worked on as they were very draughty. I’m also working on adding another layer of insulation to the upper floor.
I have already asked the community What is the best insulation to use? and Are consumer-grade thermal imaging cameras any good for spotting heat leaks in a house? and the responses have been really helpful.
Thanks again for your input.
Hi @russell Just had a thought about your insulation challenge. Have you looked at cork-based products? You might be able to find something that has thermal mass sufficient to store heat, insulate and float! And low embedded carbon! As I say, just a thought!
Thanks @Locky. Will take a look
A company I have worked with thru my insulation business has done a lot of marine insulation. They use polyureathane foam. It is an extremely good insulant. Timber framed houses are tricky to insulate. You can use cellulose insulation within the inner cavity void formed by the timber studs if there is one. Then there is draughtproofing which is not particularly difficult nor expensive but more of a labour of love to find the draughts.
For the heating there are some sensible suggestions here already.
I would add as a possibility for the wet heating system a water source heat pump. Typically you might place a radiator-like device into the water. https://www.nuenta.com/viewproduct.asp?pid=109 it would absorb heat from the water.
But here I wonder whether one might actually use the hull as the heat collector by running pipes round its inside.
It would be an interesting project and should in theory qualify for renewable heat incentive support!
Hi @Peter_Dunsby, thanks for the great information and welcome to the community. I also actually thought of the idea of putting a water-source heat pump into the river. In theory it should be at least as effective as a ground-source pump and has the advantage that you don’t have to dig any holes! I’ll take a look at your link. Thanks again.
Found this article of a person who’s put an air source heat pump in a barn to great success. Relevant to this discussion:
Linking in this post:
Heat pumps are on my mind at the moment as my combi boiler was condemned a few weeks back. I can see why heat pumps would struggle on a boat, as it’s a giant heatsink sitting in the water.
I’m surprised though that the COP was so close to 1. I’d be really interested to know what make and model that was and see their spec sheets? Did you mean -11C not +11C? Looking at Daikin and Panasonic units the SCOP for heating is around 4.7. Real world is bound to be a bit less of course.
Actually I was leaning towards air to air, but today I spoke to a heat pump installer who was really not keen on them. They only recommend air to water and he said they’ve just fitted solar to help someone with huge bills because their air to air system is getting a COP around 1.
Perhaps some systems are really that bad when the weather cools. It does seem strange for them to perform so badly as the outside units for air to air and air to water are doing the same basic job of getting heat into a refrigerant. Air to water systems can certainly be very efficient if properly spec’d and installed - this video I found yesterday is a great real world experience (and some serious detail!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2-_x0XZUSM Also air to air ought to have an advantage as it doesn’t have to transfer heat into the CH system water, or lose heat through pipes.
I just saw this post but I would recommend looking at what the federal government of Canada has to say. Because winter’s here are down at -10 for long stretches and often get below -20c. Good luck!